Fishing in windy days can be tricky, but it can be done. Today we share some tips on fishing in windy days: how to cast against the wind, how to not fight it, and how to deal with it in your fly presentation.
The second part of the podcast is a conversation with Kira Finkler, Director of the Idaho Water Project/Western Water and Habitat Program for Trout Unlimited. We talk about challenges, issues and projects being worked on in Idaho and the Western US.
Daniel Galhardo: This is Daniel Galhardo and you’re listening to the Tenkara Cast, the podcast about the simple Japanese method of fly fishing, tenkara. In the Tenkara Cast, I’ll be sharing information with you on techniques, history, gear and philosophies, as well as tenkara stories from anglers all over the world. This podcast is brought to you by Tenkara USA, introducing tenkara outside of Japan since 2009. It is only possible we create content such as this podcast and all the videos that we create because of your support, so we thank you so very much for purchasing Tenkara USA rods, lines, and flies. I hope you enjoy learning more about the simple Japanese method of fly fishing, tenkara.
DG: The first part of the Tenkara Cast these days is gonna be where I give you some information about tenkara. Today’s topic is gonna be: “How to fish with tenkara in the wind.” The second part of the podcast today is gonna be a conversation with Trout Unlimited, and today’s guest is gonna be Kara Finkler. Kara is the Director of the Idaho Water Project, and as well as the Western Water and Habitat Program for Trout Unlimited. So she oversees a lot of the big projects going on out in Idaho, and as well as several parts of the western part of the United States, so she has a really good overview of everything that’s going on. And Trout Unlimited of course, is the main non-profit organization that really cares for our watersheds and trout habitats. So Kara’s work as well as that of course, of all the volunteers at Trout Unlimited really is what allows us to fish in a lot of waters and allows waters to thrive and sometimes to be recovered and that kind of thing.
DG: So I thought it would be important to start highlighting the work that Trout Unlimited does around the country. TU is organized via chapters, so they do have chapters around the country that cover their local issues, and that’s what I wanna bring to you, just the work that they’re doing in your area, finding, as well as trying to figure out how to get you involved, inspire you to become involved with TU or become at least, the very least become a member. If you’re listening to this podcast, there’s a very good chance that you fish and there is also a very good chance that you’re fishing some of the waters that TU has worked on. So before I go any further, just a little shout-out again, go to tu.org, take a look at the work that they’re doing. If you haven’t become a member, do become a member, and find ways to become involved and they do really good work, and TU or Trout Unlimited is always the main beneficiary for Tenkara USA.
DG: So 1% of all of our sales go to environmental organizations. TU has always been the main beneficiary, so that’s it about them for now. And if you wanna skip to the conversation with Kara Finkler at Idaho TU, I’m not gonna be offended. You can skip to the 23-minute and 45-second mark, and you can listen to our conversation about TU and the water projects going on in Idaho and the western part of the United States.
DG: So let’s talk about fishing with tenkara in the wind. That’s a question that comes up very often, and it’s not gonna be a particularly long part of the episode because there is a few tips that I wanna share with you, a few ways that I usually approach windy conditions. But the reality of it is that wind just sucks. [chuckle] Regardless of what kind of fishing you’re doing, if the wind is strong and it is consistent, it’s just tough. We all fight the same battles, but there are a few tips that will help your tenkara fishing when it comes to wind.
DG: So let’s talk a little bit about the equipment first, and then I’ll share some techniques. When it comes to equipment, let’s talk about the rods first. So the rod, it’s gonna be the rod that you have in your hand, so that is gonna be a little bit harder to change, but just keep one thing in mind, if you are casting against the wind, the longer or the more rod you have exposed to the wind, the more wind resistance you’re gonna have. So the rods that are a little bit thinner and the rods that are a little shorter, they’re usually gonna have much less resistance to wind. So I wanna point that out because if you do have… Oftentimes, I have the Ito in my hand and oftentimes it’s windy, it’s also a very flexible rod, but it’s our longest rod. When I’m fishing with the Ito, it does have a fair amount of wind resistance, so I have to be aware that, that there are a couple of tricks that you can use, but it’s gonna have much more of a wind impact in terms of casting than a shorter rod and a thinner rod like the Rhodo, for example.
DG: So with that in mind, keep in mind that if you are fishing in certain situations and you have, especially one of the adjustable rods, like the Rhodo, the Sato, or the Ito which you can adjust to different lengths, when you have the rod at a longer length, it’s gonna have more wind resistance. So right now I’m gonna be talking a little bit about casting and how to deal with the wind when you’re trying to get your fly somewhere. In a couple of minutes, I’m gonna talk a little bit about how to deal with the wind in terms of the actual fishing. So if you have the Ito in your hand or if you have the Sato or the Rhodo, and you’re starting to find that you’re struggling a lot casting with the wind, or against the wind I should say, try fishing a rod at a shorter length. So that’s tip number one for today, try adjusting the length of the rod.
DG: Now, let’s talk a little bit about the other part of the equipment that we have, which is the line. Certain lines are gonna cut through the wind better than others, and there’s a few different characteristics that we’re looking for. First of all would be the weight of the line. Some very light level lines, they’re gonna be, even though they’re a thinner diameter, they’re much lighter, so the wind can blow them around a little bit more easily. So heavier lines will typically cast against the wind better than lighter lines. Now, the lines that we currently carry, we have two different lengths of taper lines for the new nylon lines. The new nylon taper line casts really well against the wind. It’s got just the right amount of weight that it punches through the wind really well, it’s also not a very thick diameter line so it casts really nicely, and it’s got just enough stiffness that it just punctures the wind, if you will, a little bit better.
DG: Now, the other lines that we have at Tenkara USA, there’s the traditional taper line that we’ve carried for many years, those tend to have a good amount of weight to them so they punch out nicely, but they tend to be softer and they have a thicker diameter so the wind can pick them up a little bit better. And then when it comes to level lines, we do have them in three different weights: 2.5, 3.5, 4.5. Not to be confused with any kind of western fly fishing weight classifications. These are specifically weights designated for Tenkara lines. But suffice it to say that the heavier line, the 4.5, is gonna cast against the wind much better than the 2.5. The 2.5 has other advantages, when you don’t have any wind, it’s gonna stay off the water more nicely. With that being said, if you have the option, or if you’re fishing and you’re finding that the line is not punching through the wind, just ask yourself which line is this. If you are using the super light 2.5 or if you’re using one of the traditional taper lines, there’s a good chance that that line is gonna be your limitation when it comes to wind. If you have your new nylon taper line that we sell at Tenkara USA, that cuts through the wind pretty well. It’s probably not one of the main limitations. So that’s it about the line, I think, that I wanted to mention; just how the interaction between the line and the wind is gonna be.
DG: Next is gonna be the fly. Same thing. The bigger the fly you have, the more resistance to wind it’s gonna have. So if you have just a little regular Tenkara fly, those tend to be very aerodynamic actually ’cause of the reverse hackle and low profile and that kind of thing. Those are never a problem with wind themselves. If you’re trying to cast a larger fly, like a stimulator kind of fly, those will be picked up by the wind a little bit more. So keeping those things in mind.
DG: Now that I gave you an overview about how the equipment is gonna interact with the wind, let’s talk a little bit about techniques and how to actually start fishing with the wind. First, I’m gonna talk about casting, and then I’m gonna be talking about just how to present the fly. When it comes to casting, if the wind is strong and it’s consistent, the first thing to keep in mind is don’t fight it. Because regardless of what kind of setup you’re using, casting against the wind is just never gonna be very pleasant, it’s always gonna be a little frustrating. There are ways to deal with it. I’ll get into those in a second, but if the wind is consistent and it’s strong, don’t fight it, use it. What I mean by that is, oftentimes, people tend to have one approach to fly fishing, they either go upstream or they go downstream. I’m a big believer that you can go either way.
DG: And if I’m fishing and the wind is blowing downstream and I’m trying to cast upstream, well, why don’t I just change my tactic here and start fishing downstream? Or if I’m fishing in an open meadowy kind of stream and it’s blowing across, is there any way that I can cross the river and use the wind to my advantage to carry the fly out for me? So you can use the wind in a lot of situations that I’ve seen to actually get your fly where you want it to go. Of course, sometimes there’s gusts of wind, sometimes the wind changes, sometimes it just seems to wreck havoc. And that’s something that we’re gonna deal with, and there’s no easy solution here, we’re just all deal with the wind, we all cuss it, nobody really likes wind. But first suggestion that I have is try not to fight it, use it.
DG: The second part of it is gonna be how to actually cast against the wind. People are actually often surprised by how I can actually cast very accurately, even against fairly strong winds. And there’s two main things that you need to do when you’re actually fishing and you wanna cast your fly against the wind. Let’s say there’s a really good spot and it’s a little upstream from you, the wind is being consistent, but you really wanna get your fly out there. In terms of casting against the wind, first thing you’re gonna do is you’re gonna have a much faster cast, especially on your forward cast. So typically, when I’m teaching people how to cast, I tell them, go fast on your backcast and that’s gonna make the line just have more speed and then it’s gonna make the line load your rod. And then I usually tell people in a forward cast, you can go slower, you can relax your hand, the rod is gonna do most of the work for you.
DG: Now, when the wind is coming against you, you have to fight it. So what are you gonna be doing is you’re gonna do a fast backcast and a very fast forward cast. Fast, fast. Like right now, I’ve got a rod in my hand here, and the speed that I’m actually talking is the speed that I’m moving my hand. So fast, fast; fast, fast. So that’s backcast, forward cast; backcast, forward cast. And use your wrist ’cause the wrist is actually gonna help you with that. So speed is fundamental to get you to cast against the wind accurately and precisely and just really efficiently as well.
DG: The next step is where to move your rod to and from. So the typical tenkara cast, you’re gonna do your backcast and you’re gonna stop the rod, point it straight up at 12 o’clock approximately. On a forward cast, you’re gonna stop at a 2:30 or 10:30 position, depending on which side of the clock you’re looking at. Now, when I’m casting against the wind, I’m gonna modify it a little bit so that I’m not gonna go as far back on my backcast, so I’m gonna stop a little bit in front of me, and essentially, I’m just gonna have a little less time to play with the wind essentially. So I’m gonna stop the backcast a little bit sooner, and then on my forward cast, I’m actually gonna stop the tip of the rod really low, almost parallel to the water, almost at 3 o’clock, and what I’m trying to do is get the line to shoot towards my target, closer to the water where there’s gonna be a little bit less wind.
DG: So that’s how I personally deal with the wind when I wanna cast against it, and another little variation on this modified casting stroke is to do a side arm cast. So I just mentioned that you can do an overhead cast, and that’s what I do most of the time. On the forward cast, I’m gonna stop the rod tip lower, closer to the water, and it’s gonna take advantage of the area with the less wind closer to the water. If you do a side arm cast where your rod stays essentially parallel to the ground or to the water, that can also help a lot. So if you’re having some problems with the wind and you’re doing the overhead cast, go ahead and try side arm cast. Oftentimes, that can help a lot ’cause it just stays where there’s less wind.
DG: So that’s how you cast against the wind, and how you deal with it, but again, just to recap, rule number one, don’t fight it. If you do have to fight it, just make a very quick casting stroke and have your rod tip closer to the water, either at the end of the cast or during the cast, if you do a side arm cast. But actually, that just reminded me of a third little tip that I share oftentimes, or I don’t usually share it ’cause I haven’t thought too much about it, but when you’re fishing and the wind is not super consistent and it’s not completely blowing non-stop, take advantages of little pauses in the wind to get your fly where you need it to go. So that’s actually something that I use really often. I’m in front of a pool, I’m noticing that the wind is mostly there but there are pauses in the wind, take advantage of those. So take a breather, if you see a rise, don’t cast to it immediately. It’s actually gonna help you because it’s gonna give the fish a chance to go down, recuperate. Wait until you have the little pause in the wind and then cast, so that’s another way to deal with the wind as well.
DG: Now, I talked about the equipment, how to cast against the wind, but one of the more common questions that I get is actually how to fish against the wind. So typically, that comes from the fact that most of the presentations that we do with tenkara are where we keep the rod tip high and the line off the water. Now, when you do that, when the line is off the water and it’s windy, that line is gonna be picked up by the wind. So if the wind is blowing towards you, it’s gonna just drag your fly towards you; if it’s blowing away, it might start making the fly flutter above the surface instead of staying in the water. So how do we deal with that? First, probably the main thing is, and it’s actually pretty much everything stems from this, is minimize how much line is exposed to the wind. It’s never really a rule to keep the line off the water entirely, it is the way we fish most of the time ’cause then we can prevent any drag on the line, but nothing tells you to keep the line off the water entirely all the time.
DG: So if the wind is blowing strong and you’re having a hard time because the wind is picking up your line and blowing it, minimize how much line you have in the water. So what you’re gonna be doing is, I usually avoid doing what I call western fly fishing presentation, I usually avoid casting the line straight in front of me across the stream, laying the line in the water, ’cause that’s just gonna drag it a bunch. What I usually like to do is primarily have my rod tip upstream from my fly, or upwind from my fly if I can. But what that’s gonna allow me to do is, if you visualize for a second here, you have a stream in front of you and it’s flowing from your left to your right. Now, let’s say that you do your typical presentation and you keep the rod tip elevated, the line is off the water. Now the wind is blowing from your left to your right as well, so it’s blowing from upstream to downstream. If you do that, the fly is just gonna be dragged by the wind downstream really fast, it’s gonna skate over the water and it’s gonna get off the water and so forth.
DG: Now try this next time you go fishing and just visualize this in front of you right now, instead of having the rod tip pointed up, point the rod way upstream and almost have the tip of the rod touching the water. Now, if you just keep that there for a quick second, what’s gonna be happening is, the fly is gonna just move downstream and then you have your tip of the rod close to the water upstream from the fly and the line is taut. It’s really nice and tight. And you’re essentially dragging the fly that way. Now, if you wanna do a dead drift, just start moving the rod down stream with the tip of the rod pointed down. If you wanna do a pulsating kind of motion, it’s a little bit harder, but you can do, just do the pulsating movement with the rod going towards upstream, for example.
DG: So you can start doing all these different techniques just by having the rod tip upstream from the fly, and the rod tip really close to the water, that way you’re minimizing how much line is getting picked up. So that’s kind of like really the number one tip, maybe the only one that I have in terms of how to fish and win. Sometimes it just sucks. Once in a while, it’s just really hard to deal with it. Repositioning yourself is probably the second thing that I would suggest. If you are, let’s say on the tail end of the pool, like you have the same stream in front of you, going from left to your right, you’re on the right side of it. And the wind is just kind of blowing your line downstream and away from the pool, and you’re really having a hard time dealing with it. What would happen if you just move to the head of that pool? Would you be able to just do what I just mentioned a second ago, keep the rod tip a little upstream from there, and then you’re fishing the head of the pool, and the line is not getting picked up as much. Or can you cross the stream and fish from the other side.
DG: So repositioning yourself to allow ways to keep the line off the water will help you a lot. So a lot of this stuff is actually very intuitive in a way, if you don’t overthink it. You’re just trying to solve a little problem, how do I keep my fly in that lane without the wind pulling it away too much? And typically you can find a solution. Okay, if I position myself on the other side or if I position myself downstream or upstream, I can probably do that. So that’s kind of how you’re mostly gonna deal with it. And in terms of repositioning oftentimes, keep in mind that if you just follow the stream a little bit, maybe the next bend is gonna have a nice shelter from the wind, it’s gonna have some wind breaks like some trees. Or you go around a bend and the wind is all of a sudden not going from a certain position, it’s going from a different position, relative to the water. So that can help you a lot as well.
DG: So if you’re struggling a bunch with the wind and it’s just, you cannot really think of much else to do, move. And that’s the main advice that we give to the tenkara in general, if you’re not catching fish, move, gradually move and find your place where the wind is not gonna be blowing as strongly. In some places I fish, I should probably have opened by mentioning that I do fish in windy places very frequently, in Wyoming, in the canyons here outside of Boulder. And pretty much I always find places where the wind can be a little bit more favorable to how I wanna fish it. So I’ve had places like big open meadows that there’s no wind breaks, but by going around a bend, I can find places where I’m using the wind, instead of fighting it the whole time, so that’s kind of how I usually deal with the wind. So that’s it for the wind part of the conversation that we’re having here today. And if you have any tips any suggestions any advice, I’d love to hear them. You can share your tips on this podcast page, there’s a comment section, if you go to tenkarausa.com/podcast, you can make a comment and people can learn from you as well. I’d love to hear what you do when it becomes windy.
DG: So next up, we have a conversation with Kara Finkler the Director of the water program in Idaho, and she is involved with a lot of different water projects and at Western Water and Habitat Program as well. So Kara is gonna give us a really good overview of what’s going on in Idaho. Thanks for listening. And until next time on the Tenkara Cast.
Kara Finkler: Well, one kind of cool thing, just to let you know real quickly, I had a family reunion in Idaho last month and Kevin and Isaac came and we had family come from all over, and several of them wanted to try fishing. And so Kevin and Isaac took them out one evening, and they used Tenkara… They used a couple of Tenkara rods and a couple of regular fly rods, and they made it so that everybody caught a fish, I was so impressed with them, I think they’re gonna be future guides.
DG: That is so cool. I love those stories, it’s some of my favorites, for sure.
DG: So Kara, tell us, what do you do with Trout Unlimited.
KF: Sure, so I am the director of the Idaho Water Project for Trout Unlimited and it’s part of a larger Western Water and Habitat program that Trout Unlimited has, and essentially my team and I work on different projects around the state, oftentimes partnering with farmers and ranchers to improve fish habitat or water flow, often through win-wins. So we might help a rancher upgrade their infrastructure for watering fields, for example, but then at the same time, maybe figuring out a way to put in a fish screen or saving some water to keep it in the stream, and so everybody is benefiting from something like that. We also work with collaborative groups across the state. So as many places around the west, there’s more demand for water than there is supply in many of our watersheds. And so Trout Unlimited has found that the best way to address the gap between those two, is in collaborative groups where you get every, all the different water users at the table and try to figure out collaborative solutions to… Maybe not everybody will get all the water that they wanted, but everybody will get what they need, and then we’ve just found that working together is the best way to find lasting solutions to those water challenges.
KF: And then we also work on, related to the conservation projects, work on water transactions, which just means any way that you can try to keep a little water in a stream or river. So as I mentioned before, it might be something like keeping a little bit of water in a river through a water lease, for example, which is basically just a short-term, we can find funds to pay a farmer or a rancher to keep a little bit of water in a stream that at a particularly important part of time of the year for a particular trout or salmon or steelhead.
DG: Excellent, so you’re based… Are you based in Boise, or where are you on that?
KF: Yes, I’m based in Boise, but we have staff all over Idaho.
DG: And I know, so you mentioned that you are in the Idaho Water Project as well as the Western Water and Habitat Programs. Are you primarily involved in Idaho Project, or is it western waters in general, or where are you primarily?
KF: Right. No, that’s a good question. So I primarily focus in Idaho, but as you know, watersheds don’t always stay within a state boundary, so we work closely with some staff in other states, and then also some of our staff, and even some of our chapters now are… Their territory covers more than just one state. So, and when I mentioned the broader… So we’re part of… My program is part of the larger Western Water and Habitat Program, and so there are people like me in the other western states as well, so we’re all trying to further Trout Unlimited’s mission in these similar ways in the different states.
DG: Yeah, no, that makes sense. Yeah, the water flowing from one state to another. I would imagine there’s a lot of bureaucracy as well, and a lot of challenges that come with that interstate…
KF: Sometimes, for sure.
DG: And what would you say, like if we focused a little bit on Idaho today, what are some of the main challenges that Idaho is facing that TU is working on?
KF: I would say climate change is a big one because, primarily because climate change makes all the stressors that a system is already under. For example, wildfire or drought, climate change just overlays all of those challenges and makes everything more difficult. So I would say that’s one of the challenges. Another challenge is water quantity, and that’s probably tied back to climate and climate change, because as things are getting warmer, we just have less water available, and that of course trout and salmon and steelhead, they need water every day, so that’s a challenge. And then I would say too, just trying to broaden our circle of having kids and teenagers and college students interested and excited about fishing and conservation.
DG: Yeah, and I kind of, at least for us, we always look at kids, because we wanna get them to fish so that they pay attention to what’s going on, and last year I remember introducing a young neighbor into fly fishing and actually, it was three years ago now, and then it was last year, there was some drought kind of issues, and we were a little afraid that we were gonna be very low on water, and she was like, “Hey, is that gonna be impacting fishing?”
DG: And it’s interesting to see how that resonated.
KF: Right, right, yeah. They are very smart and they pick it up very quickly. Luckily, I feel, in Idaho in particular, we have amazing volunteers who work on a lot of different programs to help introduce young people to fishing, and the work that Trout Unlimited does. In fact, the Ted Trueblood Chapter that’s based in Boise, this is the 9th or 10th year that they actually put on every summer a trout camp, where they take a group of about 20 kids fishing and camping for about four days, and it’s kids everywhere from who have been fishing since they were one year old to kids who have never picked up a rod before, and by the end, everybody’s caught a fish and everybody is happy, and it’s an incredible, I think, outreach opportunity.
DG: Yeah, so of course, we all know that the western part of the country tends to go through a lot of periods of drought, and California, notably right now, Colorado, it kinda looks like we might be entering a drought. But I don’t hear a ton about Idaho. And how is the situation right now in terms of drought issues and water levels?
KF: Sure, so last year, like other places, we had this incredible water year. We had a lot of snowpack, a lot of snow, and so then we had a lot of water. In fact, there was flooding in some parts of the state and so there was a lot of… Because of that, there was some carryover water in some other reservoirs. And so even though this year wasn’t like that exceptional water year, because of some of the carryover, it was still a pretty good year this year, and everybody… There was not anything severe about water shortages. So past two years have been okay but it could… It’s so year to year, it could change next year, and I know…
DG: Yeah, and I…
KF: Oh, sorry, go ahead.
DG: Oh, no, I was gonna say, yeah, the Western’s fickle when it comes to the water.
DG: And that’s a probably a huge issue. Yeah, you sent me a list of projects that you’re involved on, and I’m actually gonna be posting the links to those several projects on the podcast page for this episode.
DG: But what would you say is the primary project, the one that has taken the most time out of your daily work with TU?
KF: Oh, that’s hard because that’s like saying, who’s my favorite child among my three kids. [chuckle] Well, I think one I would… One area I had mentioned is the Upper Salmon in Idaho, so fish… Historically, salmon and steelhead, we’re talking about 850 miles from the Pacific Ocean, and they would come back to the Upper Salmon Watershed. And there’s an incredible collaborative group of state, federal, non-profits like us, doing restoration projects there, trying to improve the habitat and the water flow for the salmon and steelhead who do come back. And we have a great project manager there named Matt Green and also Cassie Wood is working in the Yankee Fork, which is another close by. Also, I sent you some information about that place, and so it’s very… I feel like it’s easy to get depressed when you’re thinking about fish and water supply and drought and everything in the west. But when you see that… This work that my colleagues are able to accomplish with partners, it’s very… It just gives you hope that we can improve the situation and keep making positive progress for the fish and for the communities.
DG: No, absolutely, yeah, and usually when we see the result, that’s very encouraging and when we see… Any little victory goes a long way in this race.
KF: Exactly, exactly.
DG: Most of these episodes, I’ve talked to different chapters of TU, they’re more or like local chapters. You are in a broader scoping part of TU, in your work. Is there any way that people that are passionate about water issues in the west, is there any way that they can volunteer, that they can get involved? What is the best way for somebody to get involved with the work that you guys are doing in TU?
KF: Sure. So we have nine chapters around the state in Idaho and incredible volunteers here. We have about 2,000 members statewide and they’re organized into nine chapters, and I would recommend getting involved with your local chapter because actually staff like myself and my colleagues, we work very closely and coordinate with our chapters and volunteers. And so that’s a great way to start working with everybody here.
DG: That makes a lot of sense, yeah. Yeah, it seems to be very easy to get involved. Just go to your local chapter and start going to meetings and see where you can add value, where you can lend your expertise and your energy. It seems like that’s the way to go. Well, excellent. This conversation with TU chapters and parts of Trout Unlimited are really to give a good overview of TU’s work in protecting fish habitat, the waters that we love. Through Tenkara, we’re introducing a lot of people to fly fishing and we wanna make sure that people are aware of the work that TU is doing. So I appreciate you taking a little bit of time just to give me a brief introduction, hopefully, get people interested in the work that you’re doing and either donate to Trout Unlimited or go to chapter meetings and start becoming involved. So hopefully, you’re gonna see a little bit of a interest from tenkara Anglers on that side.
KF: That’s wonderful. Thank you so much for all of the support that you give Trout Unlimited and for introducing so many people to fly fishing.
DG: No, of course, yeah. And we’re so happy to be able to do that and, yeah, thank you, Kara. So I appreciate you having onboard and we’ll be posting this episode pretty soon where more and more people learn about the work you’re doing.
KF: Great, thank you.